Thanks Shelby, not sure I agree with all of it, I still find many things very interesting.
I still enjoy interaction with people and hearing their stories.
I do still appreciate the shapes of womens bodies but, I guess, from a more artistic viewpoint.
I still like to sketch and play guitar but, admittedly it's much harder to get motivated.
I often write poetry and still do, although the content is a bit more introspective.
The bit about having no content in your mind and distinguishing what is interesting or not interesting is actually quite insulting. To women as well as men.
What we find interesting is very subjective, how can he suggest that we can't discern what is of interest to ourselves, seems very arrogant.
He seems to be suggesting that it is a bad thing to change what you find as interesting, a very conservative viewpoint.
What we discern as of interest is very subjective and changes through life and experience, and that variation helps us be more rounded human beings.
I think that article is by a rather testosterone driven man, who is confused because of what he sees as the loss of the identity that he associates with his "maleness". His seems to be a rather shallow viewpoint, without nuance.
I feel that I now actually have a more "clean" interaction with women, generally. Not muddied by intrusive sexual desire.
Aside from the whole loss of testosterone thing, being diagnosed with a life shortening/life ending illness also changes your view of what is important, what is worthy of interest. This can be confusing for others close to you.
Interesting read though, sorry about the lengthy reply, I could go on, but fear I might be becoming boring.
Thanks Shelby. I guess we can all have different experiences with our life changing journeys. Love to you and yours.
I love this, Clive, and I’m glad your experience differs from the quote. You’ve got a tremendous support system through your interests and connections with others. What I’ve learned is that hormonal changes are so individualized to each person. Maybe if anything, the quote has helped you to realize that you’re in a better frame of mind than you thought you were as you navigate this health crisis. I saved the quote originally because it captured my experience in early perimenopause - I didn’t recognize myself as everything was changing all at once - from the foods I loved to eat, to the activities I loved to spend my time on, to my energy levels, and everything in between. My identity was hit at its core.
I’ve enjoyed our interaction and am so grateful to you for commenting. If you have any suggestions for future articles that address male aging, please let me know. I wish you the best in life and with your treatment plan. You’re a true gentleman.
Just put this up, not sure if you would see it so thought I would copy it here. Guess it's relevant to the whole male aging thing. Thanks for your interest.
As an older male moving into my late 60's I often find that younger people are quite suspicious of me, quite wary.
I get a feeling of “why's this old guy talking to me? ”, “what's he want?”.
I fully understand that there is good reason to be suspicious, there are so many, let's say, predatory men out there, and being careful is definitely called for, to be encouraged, in fact.
Just wanted to say, and I really don't want to be a part of the “not all men” brigade, that for me at least, all I want is a brief chat. Maybe to find out what concerns younger people have in this increasingly insane world, maybe a little bit of banter.
With the exception of the above,
There is nothing I want from you,
There is nothing you can give me,
There is nothing I can take from you,
I know this sounds defensive, and it's not my intent to try and shame anyone.
Recently heard myself referred to as a creepy, over friendly old man. So stopped attempting to interact with younger people outside my immediate family circle. I think that's terribly sad, really.
I guess I'm trying to make up for that loss on this platform, thinking maybe the social and physical distance of social media will make the interaction more acceptable, less threatening.
Anyway, thanks for reading, if you managed to get this far I appreciate it. 💙
Hi Clive, I hope you don't give up trying. We all need some good in the world. You've run into an issue that is very prevalent today in that we are all suspicious of each other and have been trained to be that way thanks to spammers and scammers. The other issue especially with the younger Gen Z generation is that they were never taught how to speak to adults nor did they have a lot of opportunities. I was recently sharing with my daughter that when I had to call her father when we were dating I had to speak to his parents often because he lived at home. Kids nowadays bypass that hurdle in that way with their own phones and in so many ways. I have 20 year old twins and have made sure from a very young age that they knew how to talk with adults. It's an important skill and I am often given compliments when they interact with people out in the world.
These kids don't know what to believe either. What's real and what's not. They are very cautious. There are facts that my kids don't even believe ME when I've told them something. I used to get into arguments with them but now I just say "Google it."
We recently had a fun little conversation with an older than me gentleman while shopping when he saw my daughter's pants and asked what they were called now because in his day they were called bell bottoms. These interactions can still happen.
I hope my prespective at least gives you some comfort that it's not you.
Thanks, Dr. Chern! I imagine without having monthly menstrual cycles to base time on one day just blends into the next and then all of a sudden you notice big changes.
You're right about that. Men keep everything locked up tight, however sharing this is beneficial and helpful in processing everything going on in your life right now (even if you ultimately delete it because we connected over it). You're dealing with a lot and I'm sure it's one big jumble of confusion. It's not a sign of weakness to open up and lay the cards on the table although I know it feels vulnerable. It's a sign of strength. I totally understand if your comments disappear, however from what I've seen my merry band of "peri-pausies" here are very supportive and I'm protective of them (yourself included).
Be back in touch later with that quote I promised.
Experiencing Andropause (didn't know that word or even know there was a word for it, till now) myself. Been having hormones to completely knock out my testosterone, to prevent prostate cancer feeding on it and spreading.
Serious depression, grieving lost function, exhaustion and debilitating hot flushes. Understand now at least some of what women go through.
Still reticent to discuss this with friends because of the whole mocking of people with ED.
Loss of libido and desire is actually quite welcome as there is no function. Not looking forward to it coming back given the circumstances, although ceasing the hormone intake would mean that the cancer was gone, at least for the time being.
Clive, thank you so much for being open to share your story here. You're a hero, truly. In a book I have at home there's a quote I think you'll resonate with about a man's experience not having testosterone. When I get back I'll post that here for you. There's so little information for men as it is that I think this quote will be helpful to you. I hope by giving you a word for part of what you're going through you'll be able to find more information and connect online with others going through this. And, I'm here for you too.
Thanks Shelby, as men we are often expected to be stoic and strong and keep quiet about such things. Also, compared to what some people have to suffer through, it seems a bit weak and pathetic to complain.
Even now trying to resist the urge to delete my comment in case someone I know sees it, or someone mocks me on this platform.
So if it does disappear, please know that I am grateful for your post, your reply and your support it's very important to me.🙏 💙
Clive, I found the quote but I'm not sure what book it came from although it was a book on menopause. I photocopied the quote and returned the book to the library (an academic one). I thought the passage was amazing and even though it describes a man's experience it could also help women understand what they're going through.
"everything that I identify as me, my ambition, my interest in things, my sense of humor, the inflection in my voice, the quality of my speech even, changed in the time that I was without a lot of testosterone. There were things that I find offensive about my own personality that were disconnected then. And it was nice to be without them envy, the desire to judge myself. I approached people with the humility that I had never displayed before. So yes the re-introduction of testosterone returned everything. When you have no testosterone you have no desire. And when you have no desire, you don't have any content in your mind. You don't think about anything. People who are deprived of testosterone don't become Spock-like and incredibly rational. They become nonsensical, because they're unable to distinguish between what is and isn't interesting, and what is worth noting and what isn't. This has changed everything I know as myself and it violates the sanctity of that understanding, that understanding that who you are exists independent of any other forces in the universe. And that's humbling. And that's terrifying."
When he's talking about desire I believe he's talking about more than sexual desire. I think he's also talking about ambition and his drive for life.
Substack deleted my second reply... bummer. I'll try to re-create it.
You're absolutely right that men hold everything in tight however it's so beneficial in processing what's happening to you by sharing it. Even if you decide to delete your comments, we at least were able to connect through it. So many new experiences you're going through right now. It's helpful to have someone in your corner who understands and that means opening up even if it means feels vulnerable.
My merry band of "peri-pausies" are wonderfully supportive and I'm protective of my group here (yourself included), so I think your comments are safe here but you must do whatever you feel comfortable with. Either way I'll still make sure I get that quote to you.
Thanks for writing this Shelby. Such a reassuring reminder! We are all in this aging business together (at least those of us lucky enough to get here).
Love this! Far too many women I know have said extremely critical things about men with ED or other signs of andropause. The way I’ve always seen it is that, as we all age, all of our bodies go through changes that none of us can really control. Part of the wisdom of aging is that we learn grace toward ourselves and others, and this is all part of it.
Loved this one! I especially like the jokes and captions in between the important stuff! Thank you!
Thanks, Amanda! Right on! I had been so focused on my own perimenopause experience that I didn't realize what men go through themselves. Now I'm more understanding.
My mother owned a copy of Gail Sheehy's book. She had it on her nightstand. I added it to my reading list. At the time, it was a bestseller.
Thanks Shelby, not sure I agree with all of it, I still find many things very interesting.
I still enjoy interaction with people and hearing their stories.
I do still appreciate the shapes of womens bodies but, I guess, from a more artistic viewpoint.
I still like to sketch and play guitar but, admittedly it's much harder to get motivated.
I often write poetry and still do, although the content is a bit more introspective.
The bit about having no content in your mind and distinguishing what is interesting or not interesting is actually quite insulting. To women as well as men.
What we find interesting is very subjective, how can he suggest that we can't discern what is of interest to ourselves, seems very arrogant.
He seems to be suggesting that it is a bad thing to change what you find as interesting, a very conservative viewpoint.
What we discern as of interest is very subjective and changes through life and experience, and that variation helps us be more rounded human beings.
I think that article is by a rather testosterone driven man, who is confused because of what he sees as the loss of the identity that he associates with his "maleness". His seems to be a rather shallow viewpoint, without nuance.
I feel that I now actually have a more "clean" interaction with women, generally. Not muddied by intrusive sexual desire.
Aside from the whole loss of testosterone thing, being diagnosed with a life shortening/life ending illness also changes your view of what is important, what is worthy of interest. This can be confusing for others close to you.
Interesting read though, sorry about the lengthy reply, I could go on, but fear I might be becoming boring.
Thanks Shelby. I guess we can all have different experiences with our life changing journeys. Love to you and yours.
I love this, Clive, and I’m glad your experience differs from the quote. You’ve got a tremendous support system through your interests and connections with others. What I’ve learned is that hormonal changes are so individualized to each person. Maybe if anything, the quote has helped you to realize that you’re in a better frame of mind than you thought you were as you navigate this health crisis. I saved the quote originally because it captured my experience in early perimenopause - I didn’t recognize myself as everything was changing all at once - from the foods I loved to eat, to the activities I loved to spend my time on, to my energy levels, and everything in between. My identity was hit at its core.
I’ve enjoyed our interaction and am so grateful to you for commenting. If you have any suggestions for future articles that address male aging, please let me know. I wish you the best in life and with your treatment plan. You’re a true gentleman.
Just put this up, not sure if you would see it so thought I would copy it here. Guess it's relevant to the whole male aging thing. Thanks for your interest.
As an older male moving into my late 60's I often find that younger people are quite suspicious of me, quite wary.
I get a feeling of “why's this old guy talking to me? ”, “what's he want?”.
I fully understand that there is good reason to be suspicious, there are so many, let's say, predatory men out there, and being careful is definitely called for, to be encouraged, in fact.
Just wanted to say, and I really don't want to be a part of the “not all men” brigade, that for me at least, all I want is a brief chat. Maybe to find out what concerns younger people have in this increasingly insane world, maybe a little bit of banter.
With the exception of the above,
There is nothing I want from you,
There is nothing you can give me,
There is nothing I can take from you,
I know this sounds defensive, and it's not my intent to try and shame anyone.
Recently heard myself referred to as a creepy, over friendly old man. So stopped attempting to interact with younger people outside my immediate family circle. I think that's terribly sad, really.
I guess I'm trying to make up for that loss on this platform, thinking maybe the social and physical distance of social media will make the interaction more acceptable, less threatening.
Anyway, thanks for reading, if you managed to get this far I appreciate it. 💙
View
Hi Clive, I hope you don't give up trying. We all need some good in the world. You've run into an issue that is very prevalent today in that we are all suspicious of each other and have been trained to be that way thanks to spammers and scammers. The other issue especially with the younger Gen Z generation is that they were never taught how to speak to adults nor did they have a lot of opportunities. I was recently sharing with my daughter that when I had to call her father when we were dating I had to speak to his parents often because he lived at home. Kids nowadays bypass that hurdle in that way with their own phones and in so many ways. I have 20 year old twins and have made sure from a very young age that they knew how to talk with adults. It's an important skill and I am often given compliments when they interact with people out in the world.
These kids don't know what to believe either. What's real and what's not. They are very cautious. There are facts that my kids don't even believe ME when I've told them something. I used to get into arguments with them but now I just say "Google it."
We recently had a fun little conversation with an older than me gentleman while shopping when he saw my daughter's pants and asked what they were called now because in his day they were called bell bottoms. These interactions can still happen.
I hope my prespective at least gives you some comfort that it's not you.
Appreciate this perspective. Men’s midlife changes are so gradual that it’s easy to feel isolated...
Thanks, Dr. Chern! I imagine without having monthly menstrual cycles to base time on one day just blends into the next and then all of a sudden you notice big changes.
You're right about that. Men keep everything locked up tight, however sharing this is beneficial and helpful in processing everything going on in your life right now (even if you ultimately delete it because we connected over it). You're dealing with a lot and I'm sure it's one big jumble of confusion. It's not a sign of weakness to open up and lay the cards on the table although I know it feels vulnerable. It's a sign of strength. I totally understand if your comments disappear, however from what I've seen my merry band of "peri-pausies" here are very supportive and I'm protective of them (yourself included).
Be back in touch later with that quote I promised.
Experiencing Andropause (didn't know that word or even know there was a word for it, till now) myself. Been having hormones to completely knock out my testosterone, to prevent prostate cancer feeding on it and spreading.
Serious depression, grieving lost function, exhaustion and debilitating hot flushes. Understand now at least some of what women go through.
Still reticent to discuss this with friends because of the whole mocking of people with ED.
Loss of libido and desire is actually quite welcome as there is no function. Not looking forward to it coming back given the circumstances, although ceasing the hormone intake would mean that the cancer was gone, at least for the time being.
Clive, thank you so much for being open to share your story here. You're a hero, truly. In a book I have at home there's a quote I think you'll resonate with about a man's experience not having testosterone. When I get back I'll post that here for you. There's so little information for men as it is that I think this quote will be helpful to you. I hope by giving you a word for part of what you're going through you'll be able to find more information and connect online with others going through this. And, I'm here for you too.
Thanks Shelby, as men we are often expected to be stoic and strong and keep quiet about such things. Also, compared to what some people have to suffer through, it seems a bit weak and pathetic to complain.
Even now trying to resist the urge to delete my comment in case someone I know sees it, or someone mocks me on this platform.
So if it does disappear, please know that I am grateful for your post, your reply and your support it's very important to me.🙏 💙
Clive, I found the quote but I'm not sure what book it came from although it was a book on menopause. I photocopied the quote and returned the book to the library (an academic one). I thought the passage was amazing and even though it describes a man's experience it could also help women understand what they're going through.
"everything that I identify as me, my ambition, my interest in things, my sense of humor, the inflection in my voice, the quality of my speech even, changed in the time that I was without a lot of testosterone. There were things that I find offensive about my own personality that were disconnected then. And it was nice to be without them envy, the desire to judge myself. I approached people with the humility that I had never displayed before. So yes the re-introduction of testosterone returned everything. When you have no testosterone you have no desire. And when you have no desire, you don't have any content in your mind. You don't think about anything. People who are deprived of testosterone don't become Spock-like and incredibly rational. They become nonsensical, because they're unable to distinguish between what is and isn't interesting, and what is worth noting and what isn't. This has changed everything I know as myself and it violates the sanctity of that understanding, that understanding that who you are exists independent of any other forces in the universe. And that's humbling. And that's terrifying."
When he's talking about desire I believe he's talking about more than sexual desire. I think he's also talking about ambition and his drive for life.
Substack deleted my second reply... bummer. I'll try to re-create it.
You're absolutely right that men hold everything in tight however it's so beneficial in processing what's happening to you by sharing it. Even if you decide to delete your comments, we at least were able to connect through it. So many new experiences you're going through right now. It's helpful to have someone in your corner who understands and that means opening up even if it means feels vulnerable.
My merry band of "peri-pausies" are wonderfully supportive and I'm protective of my group here (yourself included), so I think your comments are safe here but you must do whatever you feel comfortable with. Either way I'll still make sure I get that quote to you.
Thanks for writing this Shelby. Such a reassuring reminder! We are all in this aging business together (at least those of us lucky enough to get here).
Thanks, Dr. Connop! Knowing the facts helped me not to be so angry about aging as a woman. I find it funny how bald men can grow long beards. Humans!
Yep that's my husband - losing it on the head, growing it on the chin 😄
Love this! Far too many women I know have said extremely critical things about men with ED or other signs of andropause. The way I’ve always seen it is that, as we all age, all of our bodies go through changes that none of us can really control. Part of the wisdom of aging is that we learn grace toward ourselves and others, and this is all part of it.
Loved this one! I especially like the jokes and captions in between the important stuff! Thank you!
Thanks, Amanda! Right on! I had been so focused on my own perimenopause experience that I didn't realize what men go through themselves. Now I'm more understanding.
My mother owned a copy of Gail Sheehy's book. She had it on her nightstand. I added it to my reading list. At the time, it was a bestseller.